Salvati: "The democratic alternative to populism excludes Pd-M5S alliances"

Curbing the Barbarians is urgent but the construction of a democratic alternative to populism and sovereignty will be a long crossing in the desert that can bear fruit only in the medium-long term and that does not tolerate shortcuts on improvised and subordinate alliances of the Democratic Party with the Five Stars which would end up being a remedy worse than the disease. An economist and political scientist of great cultural depth, Michele Salvati was one of the inspirers of the Democratic Party and does not hide his disappointment at the decline that the Democratic Party has undergone over the years. Today he is more than ever convinced that, only by redefining its identity in an unequivocally reformist and pro-European sense and by finding a leader extraneous to internal wars (of the type of Bentivogli or Minniti), the Democratic Party will be able to make its contribution to the formation of a democratic alternative , which is increasingly urgent, as he explains in this interview with FIRSTonline.

Professor Salvati, last Sunday you launched an appeal from the columns of Corriere della Sera to Forza Italia and the Democratic Party not to give in to the sirens of populism should the current Lega-Cinque Stelle coalition fall apart. However, if the trend that emerged from the recent elections in Trentino Alto Adige were to be confirmed nationally, that appeal - at least on the right-wing side - is in part overcome in practice, because Forza Italia has practically disappeared and is already absorbed by the League: we are at the definitive sunset of the dream of a conservative but modern right for Italy?

“In fact, the League is growing everywhere and is attracting more voters every day than once belonged to Forza Italia. On the other hand, apart from some bellicose declarations, it seems to me that Silvio Berlusconi has given in and that therefore Salvini has a free rein, probably with the intention of reaching the European elections with this government and then, if the vote confirms the its growth, to aim for new political elections and to get rid of the 5 Stars. As far as one can guess, even if it is difficult to make predictions, it seems to me possible that in the next legislature the right-wing with Northern League traction may have the numbers to govern alone, probably on a line - especially of economic policy - less extremist than the one practiced today, if the markets don't blow everything up sooner”.

If Forza Italia cries, certainly the Democratic Party is not laughing and, despite the anti-populist resistance of Renzi and his followers, the temptation to take a shortcut back to the field through an inevitably subordinate alliance with the Five Stars is widespread: think that, in view of the Congress, this push can grow within the Democratic Party and that, despite the official denials, the candidate for the secretariat Nicola Zingaretti will be induced to ride it?

“An attempt by the Democratic Party to return to center stage with an alliance with the 5 Stars - inevitably subordinate, as he has just said - would be a remedy worse than the disease. In the Democratic Party today there is a lot of confusion and unnecessarily heated tones for and against Renzi. Beyond the sympathy or antipathy towards the former premier and secretary of the Democratic Party, it seems to me that there is a dangerous and uncritical push to cancel not so much his leadership but all the reforms that have been made in the Renzian era, both positive and the less successful ones. Personally I think Zingaretti is an experienced and wise politician but I fear he is a prisoner of the currents that support him and which risk pushing him towards a dangerous alliance with the Five Stars ”.

So I understand that you think it would be necessary to try to expel the barbarians from the government of Italy instead of trying to civilize them in order to really remove the specter of populism and build a democratic alternative?

“In the short term it would already be appreciable to be able to curb the Barbarians. But it is urgent to do so".

He does not believe that in order to effectively oppose the sirens of populism, the Democratic Party should give itself a recognizable identity, define a vision, elaborate the guidelines of a project and a political-programmatic platform and, in relation to the playing field which is unlikely to become a majority again, to seek possible alliances without distorting oneself?

"Yes of course. It's time to overcome the uncertainty about which political animal the Democratic Party is, whether a liberal, democratic and reformist left-wing party or a party that courts extremists and populists. The construction of the democratic alternative to populism is a difficult journey through the desert that will bear fruit only in the medium to long term and cannot be the task of a single party. If the PD wants to be the pivot of this alternative it must be a stable pivot: in short, the conflict between Renzians and anti-Renzians must diminish, and by a lot, and the congress should be the seal of effective unity in the face of the external adversary. Serious criticism and self-criticism are inevitable and welcome: an excellent one is the one contained in the recent book by Marco Leonardi, "The halved reforms". But above all there must be a real agreement on some basic points, because without this the convergence of the various currents would only be a facade and would leave open all the conflicts that have tarnished the image of the PD in recent years. In a long article in the Foglio I tried to indicate what these basic points could be and now I can only indicate what seems to me the most thorny, the attitude to take with the 5 Stars: this movement seems to me an even more ambiguous and dangerous opponent of the perennial adversary, the right, now in the process of regrouping under the leadership of Salvini. More ambiguous for the echoes it arouses in a left that has not yet developed a reformist position adequate to the Italian, European and international circumstances prevailing today".

And if that didn't happen, what would happen?

“It would happen that, without a clear internal agreement and a clear reformist physiognomy, accepted by all, the Democratic Party would end up breaking up again. The urgency of a reformist identity as an unequivocal basis for attempting a relaunch cannot be resolved by shelving Renzi and the past. And not even changing the name of the container if the contents remain the same. No one has ever said that the job of a reformist is an easy job and today, as already in the period between the two wars, democracy has come into conflict against its real enemy, against Behemoth, the monster of anarchy and confusion, evoked by demagogues to whom the liberal characteristics of democracy and the new means of communication grant the maximum influence in a period of “rebellion of the masses”, to recall the title of a famous book by Ortega y Gasset”.

It seems to understand from your words that the congressional debate that the Democratic Party is launching does not convince you much and that perhaps the candidates in the field are even less convinced.

"It's not just a matter of people but, in a difficult situation like the one the Democratic Party is experiencing today, perhaps a leader unrelated to the fratricidal wars of the recent past and one who brings fresh air, together with the ability to deal with the great challenges of the our time".

Who is he thinking about? Name it.

“The names that come to mind only serve to give an idea of ​​a party need at this stage. It could be a reformist leader like the secretary of the metalworkers of the Cisl, Marco Bentivogli, if he were available. Or of a capable and courageous person like Minniti: both have the characteristic of not being identifiable with Renzi's experience – and this could satisfy the anti-Renzi supporters – even if the reformist drive would continue, and the Renzi supporters could be satisfied with this”.

However, the problem of alliances remains.

“If the playing field remains the proportional system, it is evident that one cannot think of collecting 51% or even just 40% of the votes alone. But the problem of alliances is the arrival and not the starting point of the construction of a democratic alternative to populism and sovereignty, which can only start from clear and easily recognizable political contents. It is on this basis that the Democratic Party must try to recover the lost consensus, not pursuing equivocal alliances with the Five Stars, which would completely distort the reformist and pro-European proposal".

Could the next European elections, even if they will be played with the proportional system, be a first opportunity to oppose sovereignty and anti-Europeanism without unnecessary crowds but with a broad line-up ranging from Tsipras to Macron?

“Yes, the European elections can become a first opportunity to restart, as long as we present ourselves in the right way and with unmistakable reformist connotations: the PD could be the only major party that waves the European flag clearly and proudly and this could be a advantage. In this case, the field in which to place oneself is certainly the one that has Macron as its pivot. What is happening in Great Britain, where an increasingly large part of the population realizes the enormous blunder of the pro-Brexit vote, authorizes some more hope”.

There are those who say that in reality the reversal of the current sovereign, populist and anti-European tendencies circulating in Italy can only take place in the medium-long term or only after a shock such as the unfortunate exit from the euro or – if the budget of the Government will hit the wall – the arrival of a property or the obligation to donate gold to the country through the BTP or the consolidation of public debt: what do you think?

“We live in extremely uncertain times. I read too on FIRSTonline the analysis of the situation and the prospects opened up by the unfortunate budget maneuver that Filippo Cavazzuti made and the nightmares it evokes and it cannot be ruled out that the markets will make us pay. In this case the costs for Italy would be very heavy and it is not said that the reconstruction of a democratic alternative to populism will become easier”.